Panelists: Jonathan Weiss, David McIntosh
Moderated by Michael Laskow
Jonathan Weiss is a Los Angeles-based music supervisor and music producer for film and television. He was Music Supervisor for over 130 episodes of the MTV series, The Real World/Road Rules, as well as for two seasons of the E! Entertainment series, I Am Cait. Jonathan also supervised music for over 60 episodes of Keeping Up With the Kardashians on E! Entertainment, the debut season, Motor City Masters on Tru TV, and Love Games for the Oxygen Channel. Other music supervision credits include The Weinstein Company feature film documentary and PBS’s American Masters Salinger, Interscope Presents The Next Episode for Showtime Entertainment, The Education of Max Bickford for CBS, U.C. Undercover for NBC, Celebrity Undercover for MTV, and the Warner Bros. Pictures theatrical release, The Big Tease. Jonathan has also worked in A&R for Capitol Records and Universal Music Publishing, as well as TAXI.
David McIntosh is a Reality TV Editor with Bunim-Murray Productions. Some of his credits include, Keeping Up With the Kardashians, E! Entertainment, Born This Way, A&E Networks, Rivals III, The Challenge Bloodlines, I Am Cait, Total Divas, Million Dollar Maze Runner, and MTV, just to name a few.
Jon, as a music supervisor in reality TV, where does the process begin for the selection of music? With the executive producer, or is it a meeting of many people; is it a spotting session? Tell us about this process.
Jon: Well, I think for a new show like I Am Cait - which is the most recent new show - it’s a meeting with the production staff, probably some of the lead editors, and the post-supervisors. They do talk about the direction, like for that show we wanted it to be a little bit more serious in tone. A couple of the producers found other shows that were good examples of what they thought the show should sound like. We didn’t want it to be too dark, and I think everybody agreed that we actually went a little bit too dark at first on our first couple of cuts. One of our executive producers said, “You know, this isn’t a PBS documentary. It’s a serious subject of Caitlin Jenner transitioning, but it’s on E!, so let’s try to make it fun too!” So we held back little bit more on the serious stuff and got into more of some of the fun material.
So you’re right, Michael. It was a collaboration of all the production execs, music supervisors, editors, and we just sort of decided what the direction was. And then at that point, as the music supervisor, I had to go out and hire a composer - in this case - to write cues, not to picture, but for the show that were going to be some of the more serious cues. And then gather up all the fun stuff from music libraries and other sources. And if there was a scene or two where we needed a specific cue with an artist, then I would find that one. So that’s sort of how it all started.
Let’s talk about the composer stuff, where you create a library for the show. So you set a tone… kind of a sonic palette, if you will, and come up with your own internal library that’s used over and over, episode after episode, to give continuity. And then you use the library stuff for other specific instances. So once you’ve rounded up all that stuff and you’ve built that catalog from the composer and you’ve gotten the libraries… They give you the stuff on drives, right? How many pieces of music do you get from each library, and how many libraries do you get music from?
Jon: Well, I think some of these networks actually have blanket deals with some of the bigger libraries already. Like, I know E! has blanket deals in place, so I was able to just pay them a flat fee for a library per season. So instead of just giving Dave (the editor) a huge drive from a library and saying, “Go for it,” I would actually hand-pick cues from these libraries, not give them the whole drive. Then I’d create sub-categories for the genres of music. For instance, I’d create an upbeat folder, and then within that I’d sort it into pop/rock, hip-hop, electronic, EDM, club-pop EDM, and then those folders would go into the folders that the editors would use while editing. Then it would be up to the editors to go through those music files and try to find the best pieces for those particular scenes.
Yeah, that makes sense. So you may start out with, I’m guessing, somewhere in the 3,000-to-20,000 range of total music, and you have to go through and kind of skim the list looking for upbeat or horrific or tension or comedic, and build all those sub-folders that you would later hand off to Dave.
By the way, I want to mention that Jon is about as world-class as you get being a music supervisor for reality television, so I’m grateful that when he gets a 30-day window between shows or something, he’s often at TAXI screening your music. We’re glad to have you, Jon. I really enjoy having you under the roof at TAXI.
Jon: Thank you.
OK, so we’ve gotten spotting session done and we’ve gotten the stuff being curated by you for David McIntosh or one of the other editors. How many cues do you guys typically use per episode on average?
Jon: It depends. A show like The Challenge probably had 60 to 70 cues per episode; something like I Am Cait, quite a bit less.
Dave: Half as many on I Am Cait, because we’d let the scenes play longer. We wanted the dialogue and the picture to go a little longer. That’s the way the EPs [executive producers], the post-producers, and the network wanted it on that show. For something like The Challenge for MTV, I’m looking for a reason to get out of the cue in 30 to 45 seconds, and then going into another one. So yeah, it’s pretty much two cues a minute on The Challenge for MTV. Not always, but it can go that way.
Jon: It was wall-to-wall. Like what Dave said, on I Am Cait they wanted to let the dialogue breathe and not be wall-to-wall comedy or tension or whatever. So yeah, probably about half as many cues… 30, something like that.
OK, so now you’ve done the pre-selection and sub-folders of different things and you’ve given it to Dave… maybe with some overall direction. Do you just hand him the drives with that direction and he goes to work laying the stuff in? Or do you give him specific things? Like you may pre-tag, “This comedic cue would be great for scene two at 6 minutes, 34 seconds, and 21 frames”?
Jon: I’m gonna let Dave handle some of those, where he gets it and all that. But I can say that for different shows it is different. I’d say for 70% of the shows that we’ve worked on, we would give the editors loads of cues and sub-genres. However, The Challenge, it’s for MTV, which is a more music-centric network. I did hand-pick every single cue, and I got an excel spread sheet that would say, “When Peter goes up on the ledge, try this one, and try this lyric.” So it was very specific, whereas, with Kardashians or I Am Cait, they would have all these sub-genres. And these guys [the editors] are so amazing, not only in editing, but being able to pick the right cue. I’m not there. They only have the sub-genres, and they have to be able to pick, “All right, I think this requires a tension cue,” and they are all such professionals that they’re able to do that.
Are most editors at least some what, or maybe even very musical?
Dave: In some way, shape, or form, yeah. I can’t tell you how I picked it up in the 15 years I’ve been doing it, but yes. I’ve known editors who were past musicians, worked in music, and then became picture editors. I don’t know what they did, but that was their journey that probably led to where they got it. But it starts with Jonathan as the music supe going through an entire library and giving us the 10% of what he’s gone through.
And do you tend to know what his taste would lie and where his bar is at? Do ever find yourself toggling between two choices and going, “Jonathan would probably go with this one”?
Dave: Yeah, I do. On Challenge, it was a little more specific. It really was. He’d create an Excel spreadsheet, and it was specific as to the time code where things should go. Even when he’s picked a cue with a lyric up, it was even, “You need to use this particular vocal for it,” as well. So that really helps. I mean, I’m a big proponent of a very forward thinking music supe. It makes it a lot easier for me; I think it makes the show better; you get a different ear. Even though I’m listening to it, I know I have a tendency to pick similar cues in similar situations. And Jonathan would go, “No, no, no, we can’t do that over and over again.”
That’s one of questions on my list. Do many editors - and again this is reality TV-specific - tend to use the same cues over and over, because they are so darn good and they stick in your head, and you know you can rely on them? Do the same cues get used because of ease of use and the speed of which it lets you work because you’re familiar with it?
Jon: I try not to use the same cue, but it does tend to happen where one cue is so good it’ll go from season to season. But there are executives that don’t like you doing that, and they’ll give you notes asking you to change it out for something new. The Challenge was like that…
Dave: Now, on Kardashians, you could use the same cue episode-to-episode-to-episode and no one would fight back. But with MTV, it has to be different all the time.
All right, I think we’ve got enough background now. Dave, do you want to start telling us about now that you’ve got the music from Jonathan and all this background has been laid, what do you do when you go to work?
Dave: I’ll listen to it. I’ll listen to a whole cue and try to see if it’s more repetitive, or does it have a lot of layers? Does it start-stop? Does the energy crank up and plateau and then go back up? I’ll look for those things. And I’ll look for the sting-out. In reality, it has to sting. You cannot have a fade-out in any cue you use. If you do that, the producer will jump on you real quick.
Does everybody in the room know what a sting-out is? Or a button ending? Please don’t be shy about raising your hand, I’m curious to know what percentage of you guys don’t know what a stinger, a sting-out or a button ending means. OK, a definition of it is: It’s a hard ending, no fade.
Yes, Russell [audience member, asking a question].
Russell: A sting-out. Does that also include a ring-out?
Dave: Yeah. Anything that actually just ends the song in a way. It doesn’t necessarily have to be like a hard thing - which are great - but a definite end that’s not just a fade. That’s the big thing.
It could be a harp crescendo that just rings out; it could be a snare drum and hi-hat and kick drum all hitting; it could be a piano chord. Anything that says, “That’s the end.” And maybe it has got a note ringing out, or reverb tailing out.
Jon: I do prefer those with ring-outs myself, not that I’m editing them. But that’s what I always tell composers if I’m working on a production music library compilation, which I’m doing more of now. I would say, “Don’t give me a hard-out. Just give me a little bit of reverb at the end so there’s some presence at the end, so it’s not just a direct cut.”
And Dave from an editor’s perspective why is it more useful for you to have music that ends like that?
Dave: It makes it easier for me to edit. At the end, since it’s a defining point in the music cue, if I’m using it to get into an interview or out of a scene, then it’s over and it’s an easy cut point or edit point where I can use throughout, the cue itself. And I can cheat a little bit. It’s odd, but it gives me a little leeway, because I can just hit the beats, hit the snare, and if it stings, I can throw it together real quick, and then I’m done with that scene and I can move on.
Can you tell the audience what it means to back time something - back time music into a scene?
Dave: The way I do it is I would find the end of the cue and I would put it to wherever the emotional or the total end of that scene is over or a shift. Then I would put that in there and make a mark in the cue and I would just roll the head out. I would also find the front of the cue and then I’d start moving it around to make it all sound correct. But it goes backwards as opposed to forward in editing, in a way. Does that make sense?
Anyway, why don’t you start and show us how you would lay it. I mean, go through the whole process. Put some music in a scene for us on the big screen…
Dave: Well, this is already cut. These are selects that I chose. And this is actually a scene from Challenge, where Jonathan was actually was the music supervisor and he picked all the cues. [David plays the scene.] Right there I use the sound effect to actually get out of the cue, because it [the music] was going to change. Now, if I were finding the cue, I would actually put it right there [and he indicates where]. That one I actually didn’t find the end, because I thought the beginning was more important. [He plays more of the scene.] So the cue ended there, and if I were editing this, I would have actually just roll it out where that sound effect was. [More of the scene plays]
So how long would it take you to do the sound effects and the music on a scene like that?
Dave: That would only take me a day…or like a couple of hours for that. Jon would have given me a cue for that, I would have laid it in, and then I would have back-timed it. And the picture cut I’ve already done. The groundwork is laid out, and then I’d put the cue in for the act-out, back-timed it, and then I start going, OK, we’re going to add some layers here. The cue’s great, but I’ve got to beef up the end to let everyone know that this is the end of the act, you’re coming to a commercial break, stay tuned, and boost the intensity and the energy.
How many hours do you take on just the music aspect of a single episode of a show like this? And that’s just your end. Jon, after he’s done, give us…
Dave: I’ll actually tell you. We get six weeks to edit that episode, and the first week we’re putting in interviews, and story editor has already strung out [laid it out in rough sequence] just the story bit part of it. Then we get it, we clean it up and cut it down. About the second week is when Jonathan would start giving us music. And we have to give him the string-out, and then he’s already… In that week that I’m cleaning up and adding interviews, he’s picking cues. So that next Monday, five days later, we’re starting to add music. So two weeks in, it’s done for an internal cut. And it’s two editors on a 42-minute formatted episode, so for about 22 minutes it’s taken us about 10 business days to get all the music that Jon is feeding us. It’s just a constant roll.
Look for Part Two in next month’s Transmitter.