Interviewed by Michael Laskow
Mary Ramos is an award-winning music supervisor who has helped create the musical identity for over 100 films in nearly 30 years. She’s helped to shape the music for blockbuster features, award-winning independents, passionate documentaries, episodic TV, commercials, and video games as well. She’s worked on Grammy-nominated soundtracks and won two Guild of Music Supervisors’ awards for Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight. And while she might be best known for her work with Quentin Tarantino, what makes Mary fascinating to us is the wide range of projects that she’s worked on, including one of my all-time favorites, Happy Gilmore, Bride of Chucky, South Park, Chef, Kill Bill: Volumes One and Two, Mrs. America, which had an Emmy-nominated score, Little Fires Everywhere, which also had an Emmy-nominated score, Wu-Tang: American Saga Season 2, Wasteland 3, which is a video game, and Stillwater, which was just out a month or two ago.
Continuing from where we left off in Part One: I think a lot of musicians think that music supervisors listen from beginning to end on each and every song they consider. Many don’t seem aware that a long intro could hurt your chances because the supervisor probably won’t keep listening until they get to the “red meat.” Your take on that?
There are slow burners that can take… For instance, if you are a mod-like type of band, and your songs last seven minutes and you are a slow burner and you get to your climax at about minute-five, just know that those are harder to place unless they are edited, unless you have a beginning, middle and end within a digestible amount of time for a film or television show. Most uses are 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 45 seconds. It’s only Quentin [Tarantino], really, who uses a whole seven-minute-long song from beginning to end.
So those are the kinds of things to be thinking of, too, when you’re [pitching your music]. It might just be a 20-second bite that we’re looking for, so it’s good to know where that best dynamic part of the song is.
I know there are more possibilities than ever, today for indie artists to land syncs in independent films because the Internet makes music more discoverable. Can you tell our viewers why big-budget films are much more likely to use music from big well-known artists that are oftentimes on major labels?
Well, it’s a marketing thing, and it’s a bling thing. You may have had this experience. You mentioned something about your friend Harry Garfield (former VP of Music at Universal Pictures); you know, if it’s a hundred-million-dollar film, they want to show that on the screen, and it gives it an immediately expensive look or feel to it.
Makes sense. There used to be a time years ago—not so much I’ve noticed anymore—where, because records came out, and the film and TV people at the labels would coordinate with the music supervisors to try and time the placement of an artist’s next, big single with the release of the movie so that they could get the promotional value from the film for the artist, as well as the film getting a bump because the new Rihanna single was in the movie. Everybody was happy.
An exception to all this I have noticed is that reimagined covers and remixes from independent artists show up a lot more than ever, and it seems like a good way to get your stuff… Even a major studio, big-budget film will take a really cool cover. Maybe it’s a fast song like “Satisfaction” by The Stones that’s slowed down and made very ethereal and dreamy. And it works in the scene because, you know, maybe it’s a romantic scene and they are talking about satisfaction. Well, fast wouldn’t work there. So, is that an observation that holds water? Do you find that as well?
Oh my gosh, yes. It’s kinda become a joke that the slooooow cover of the fast song, or the reimagined, trailer-ized covers. You know, it’s just a fact: This is commercial media; [a re-imagined cover] can be an easier way to do something that feels new and yet has a familiarity to it or comes with nostalgia. Like, for instance, with Little Fires Everywhere, we did covers, “score-ish” covers, because we had Isa Sommers from the Florence and the Machine scoring and producing the covers, with Mark Isham. It was set in the ’90s—so we chose ’90s songs and had them covered for that. We didn’t choose typical songs; instead, we chose off-the-beaten-track songs to cover. But it still placed you in the time period, but it still allowed us to do something special with new singers and kind of “score-y” versions of those songs.
So, I’m giving you examples from something I did, but the familiarity is what is really important. And I’ve often said that for a band who wants to get noticed by the supervisor or producer, or whatever, a good idea is to do a re-imagined cover or a cover. Because a lot of times we’re looking for, you know, “You Are My Sunshine,” we’re looking for all the different renditions of that. “I’ve Got You Under My Skin,” we’re looking for renditions of that to try and use something familiar, but something with a new take on it. So, if your version is out there, we will find yours, and it will also lure us in to listen to your other music.
“You know, good covers are like gold.”
So, will you actually go online at 11 o’clock at night and start searching SoundCloud, YouTube, and Spotify to find those fresh new versions of stuff? Do you reach out to music libraries or publishers for those versions first, or do you go online and search for them?
My hours are so weird that I’m doing it at midnight and the weekend, when publishers and record companies aren’t open. So, I’ll start my own research, but then, of course, I’ll reach out to the publishers to see if they have things. And if I do come across a cool cover, I’ll often tell the publisher about it so that they [can sign it] and have it to lend out for the next thing. You know, good covers are like gold.
“It would be good to do like an old standard and do something new to it.”
I know I’m going to get this question after we finish the interview. I’m gonna get a million emails on Monday morning from people, asking, “Do I need to have permission from the publisher to do a cover of a former hit?” Do they need to get permission first, or can they create the master recording, and then it becomes your responsibility to license the composition from the publisher?
If it’s a compulsory license, if it is something that has been released on a record before, then I don’t believe you need permission. Now, if it’s gonna be used in a film or a television show or an ad, that’s on me to get rights to it, to clear it. Put it out there and it’s a bait to reel us in anyway, you know what I mean? You don’t have to worry about stuff. Don’t do a major classic; don’t do an Aerosmith. It would be good to do like an old standard and do something new to it.
I’ve seen it. I found it for a film called Last Vegas; I found a remix on YouTube that was an unofficial remix. I mean, they didn’t get permission, they just put it up. The sound of it was great, so I went through the motions getting it approved with the artist, with the record label, getting all the paperwork done before I could put it in the picture. But it turned out really cool. It was something that somebody had just put up themselves, and I liked it enough to get all their paperwork done for them.
Music supervisors often use music to set a time, establish a location, a specific place, or maybe even an event like a wedding or a Bar Mitzvah, what have you. Maybe a youthful party scene in 2021 might have current danceable pop hits or hip-hop. A party in 1969 would probably have something more like Creedence or Jefferson Airplane. Do you have any advice as to which decade seems to have more demand than others for people who maybe want to build a catalog that works for particular decades that get a lot of requests? Or is it too much of a moving target to nail it down?
I think it’s too much of a moving target. I think it’s good to look at trends; it’s good to look at what the latest trends are where people are trying… You know, The Weeknd and disco and that kind of thing. And if you notice, a lot of television shows are set in a specific time period.
Again, today we are talking to artists who are creating new songs, so it doesn’t serve them if it’s a period piece. I mean, I speak from experience. The last couple of years I’ve been doing period pieces that are specifically set in the ’90s, specifically set in the ’80s, or the 1940s with the Being the Ricardos. So, it wouldn’t have served a new artist to have submitted something in that style, because it was set in the period, and the songs needed to be authentic from the period. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. You once mentioned in one of your interviews several years ago, I think, that we always need—we-meaning music supervisors as a group or a profession—always need songs with swagger at some point. So that’s a good thing to have in your catalog. Is that still true today, and can you give me a good example or two of swagger songs that would inspire people to create their own?
It is always a good thing to have! Swagger is in everything, and also can be used ironically. You know, for the geek who gets off the elevator and trips, or whatever. You know what swagger is. It is something that’s like, “I’m feelin’ myself.” It would be like Wu-Tang; it’d be “Momma Said Knock You Out” by L.L. Cool J; “Make Me Feel” by Janelle Monae; “Howling for You,” by The Black Keys; “No Roots,” Alice Merton. It’s a tough life; it’s feeling yourself slo-mo walking towards the camera and maybe tripping and falling on your face. But it is definitely that kind of a thing. And it can be fast, or it can be slow; it could be a male vocal or a female vocal. But it’s a vibe, and I believe everybody should have something like that in their—I mean, it’s rock ’n’ roll, really—to have and to be able to offer. Because there’s always something like that needed in a story, because the character has some sort of moment where they need that.
“Do you accept unsolicited music? Unfortunately, I can’t. And the reason is...”
I’m a little afraid now because we’ve got so many people watching us that many, many musicians out there who are very industrious are gonna think, “Oh, I’ve got a swagger song. I’m gonna hunt her down and send her my swagger song.” Do you accept unsolicited music?
I can’t. Unfortunately, I can’t. And the reason is… If it was just me, heck yeah, I would. I could use them in my own home movies, it would be great. But I’ve got to have these responsibilities too, the producers and the studio and the bigger companies. I have to make sure everything that I give to them is 100% vetted. If I get something from an unknown source, I don’t know if all of the band members have signed the paperwork and everything is 100% copesetic. For instance, if I put something in a film and it doesn’t have the proper paperwork… And for instance, the singer goes and sees the film and says, “Wait a minute, that’s my song. I never got paid for that.” I mean, it does open up all of the people irresponsible to me for repercussions or being sued for vocal copyright infringement. Those kinds of things are real, so we supervisors really depend on somebody like TAXI, companies that can vouch for what they’re sending. It’s a bummer, but it’s just the way things are.
That’s certainly understandable. Nobody wants to get sued.
It’s just a matter of having your paperwork done. If you are the sole singer/songwriter and there is nobody else that played on the track, great. But if you have anyone else playing on the track, you guys have to have an agreement between you, you have to have it in writing and you have to be able to show it.
And it’s tough, especially with stuff that a lot of people in their 40s, 50s and 60s recorded really good demos, or maybe even masters back in the ’70s or ’80s, because they were pitching for a record deal. The band fell apart, everybody became a dentist, a schoolteacher, a lawyer, or whatever, and one of those people decides to pitch the music. They now have got to track down everybody who was in the band to get them to sign a work-for-hire release 30 years later. That’s tough, especially if people have passed away, or they are pissed off and then won’t take your phone call. You have got to have every single one of those “I”s dotted, “T”s crossed, or it just won’t go in.
I dealt with it on the Wu-Tang series, a band from the ’90s, and they had to go out and find every single person in the band to get them to sign off. And certainly, with Quentin’s movies, you know, I have to find people.
I literally have been quietly stalking you for the last three months in preparation for this interview. I’ve known quite a bit about your career over the years, and I’ve watched a lot of stuff you’ve worked on. And I’ve got to say, you’ve got a little trademark thing going on. Other supervisors will take a background source [music] placement, or a song on a car radio. Two people get in the car, and they’re heading to the mall, or two people walk into a bar looking for a friend. Background source music for anybody that doesn’t know; is music that comes from a source that would be in the scene, like a jukebox in a bar, a car radio speaker, speakers in the ceiling at the grocery store, what have you. A lot of supervisors I think kind of throw that away; they don’t pay as much attention as you do. Am I nuts? Are you a little fanatical about…? You make scenes 10 or 20% better because you seem to work harder. Even though it’s just a throwaway, it’s on a car radio, there’s dialogue over it, it’s way in the background, if they’re racing to get somewhere in a frantic hurry, you’ll choose frenetic music every time. Maybe the lyrics aren’t exactly what you need, but the tempo matches the speed of the tempo of the scene. Am I nuts in noticing that, or is that a thing that you do?
Sometimes the lyrics are important too, you know. [laughter] I can’t speak to what other music supervisors do. I’ve seen some amazing work that music supervisors have done in the couple of years that I’ve been binge-watching (thanks to COVID). But for me myself, every song that’s used is prime real estate. You only get so many chances to have music in a project, in television as well. So, it’s got to be fitting. It’s got to fit the scene; it’s got to fit the character. If it’s something that’s coming out of a car radio, it better lay under dialogue and curl around that dialogue and make it better. And that’s something that means a lot. Because I feel like you can tell when something doesn’t work, or a scene isn’t flowing. As any audience member you can tell. And it may not register with you right away, but it will register in your overall enjoyment of the project. You won’t really 100% dig that project or something, but if it’s done right, it will enhance your experience.
Don’t miss Part Three of this interview in next month’s TAXI Transmitter!