Panelists: Rob Chiarelli, Robina Ritchie-Barker, Ron Harris
Moderator: Michael Laskow
Michael: Rob, you're working in the record industry at an extremely high level, but you didn't know much about sync back in the day, and it was probably 10 or 12 years ago when you called me up and said, “Can you give Nate and Kaelie [of the Highfields] a membership?” They started submitting to TAXI’s listings, and they weren’t getting any forwards. And then, you called me up kind of frustrated on their behalf, and asked, “Can we go to lunch?” So, the four of us went to lunch. I don't even remember what I said at that lunch. Do you remember?
“But don't believe for a second that you're a victim because they didn't take your song.”
Rob: The gist of the whole thing was, it’s frustrating when you think you'd nailed everything in a brief you’re like, “Why didn't it get forwarded? I did this, this, this, this and this, how can they not take it?”
As a result of that lunch, we started to look at things from the perspective of what the client needed, and less about how great we thought the song was. It's not like they don't want it. It just isn't what the client needs. And this is a really big concept. Whoever is placing the listing, let's say it's Verizon, and they want a song. It's a hard pill to swallow when you come to the realization that they're wanting that song. You just didn't give them what they wanted. Well, why? At first, we started saying, “It's because we're not good enough, not yet… not yet… but if we keep at it, we're going to get one.” And you know what? All it took was one, and we believed when you get that first one—and for us, it was a Vagisil commercial, right? And Kaelie's father wanted to go to Target and buy up all the Vagisil. And we said, “Don't do it! It's not a good look.” [Audience laughs]
So, then you get one, and then you get another placement. And you know what? When you start believing that you can do it, the chain reaction begins, and you get confidence, and then you get more experience, and then you get more success! But don't believe for a second that you're a victim because they didn't take your song. You’ve got to go after it, and you got to work at it, and you know what? Along the way, you got to take some advice, and I didn't take some from Michael, and he was right. And when I did take it, it helped me. And classes here help. This whole thing [the Road Rally] is incredible, because you’re getting the best people who want to share the knowledge with you, unvarnished, right?
There's no bullsh*t up here, yeah, and I'll tell you the first… I'm going to ramble for a second.
Michael: Go for it!
Rob: I think this was the first R&B placement, and I think it was mine for TAXI in about 1993 or so, very early on, when submissions were still made on cassettes. And I had written a song called Nothing I Won't Do for Love. It actually got covered by an Atlantic artist named CJ Anthony. But I want to tell you the story of it, because this tells you how stupid I was.
So, we're talking about letting go of stuff, and not being precious. Well, here’s an example of that, that made a change in my life. And I wrote this song, and I went into the studio and I recorded it, and put beautiful strings on it. Oh, my God, I loved it. It was strings, piano, a couple of little overdubs and vocals, and the singer was incredible. Good demo singer. And the studio assistant said, “It sounds great! When are you gonna add the drums?” I said, “No drums on here. This is perfect. This song is saying exactly what I want it to say. It's beautiful.” I resisted, so I gave it to my manager, and he said, “Sounds good. Well, you know, let me know what it's done. I'm like, “Done? It's done. It's done! Okay?” He's thinking, it's not done. I'm in the studio another time, and I'm playing the song. I'm really proud of it. Everyone in the room says, “Great song. When are you gonna add the drums?” And then I'm like, “Why is everybody saying this?” And this guy, Todd, comes in, he goes, “Chiarelli, how stupid are you? Everybody comes in and says, “You gotta add drums. Like, what is wrong with you, Chiarelli? So, he went back into the studio and programmed a drum beat, and he put it on the song.” He came in, and I'm like, “I don't know.” I took it home, played it for my girlfriend and asked her what she thought. She's like, “I'm not so sure.” And I thought, “Oh, what an idiot! I'm not listening to anybody who's involved with this.” The comments were consistent, but my brain wanted it my way. I didn’t want to let go. And then finally, I put the drums on it, and it got cut! [applause] And, that was another one of those moments, a song I wrote got cut. “I can do this!” Had that never happened. I have no idea what would have unfolded, but you’ve got to be open-minded, and you can't hold so tight to your own idea that you shut out other great ideas. It's collaboration, isn't it? In a lot of ways, and we get lost now because we're all sitting alone behind a computer screen, and you know what? The only feedback we're getting is our own brain saying, “Hey, Rob, you're great. Yeah, Rob, I am great. Or Rob, you suck.” [laughter] And I think the support team and the people around you are very important. He's on my team [pointing to Ron]. She's [pointing to Robina] going to be on my team, and…
Michael: I only live four doors away. Can I be on your team? [Laughter]
Rob: You've been on my team since 1984, Laskow! Wow, that's awesome! Has it really been 40 years? Oh, Lord God, we're just talking about this at dinner last night. We've never had one argument in 40 years. Never!
Michael: There's always time! [Laughter] There’s something else I want to talk about. I call it the James Taylor syndrome. Look around the ballroom for a minute. Most people think of music as being a young person's industry, and that 20-somethings are making music, and they're doing beats and everything. TAXIs, membership skews older, and there's a reason for that—with age, comes maturity. When you're younger, you don't think you need TAXI, you don't think you need anybody, because you’re so incredibly good that people will hear your song, recognize your genius, and they're going to send you the private jet and a briefcase full of $100 bills. And then these 20-somethings grow up, and maybe they get married, start a family, have a job, they forget about music for a while because life gets in the way. But then they get a little bored, and maybe they've got a little extra money, and they've got some extra space down in the basement, and they build a studio. Now, they're 45 years old, and music comes back into their life. “Wow, I can make music all by myself because I've got a laptop with Pro Tools on it, which is amazing.” Now, anybody can make a legit record at home on a laptop. So, I'm looking out the ballroom, I'm going to say the median age is probably 42 years old. So, and I mean this with every bit of my heart—during the 32 years I’ve been running TAXI, I can tell you that most people are stuck in the stylistic rut in which they fell in love with music. For me, that’s The Beatles, Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, the Eagles, James Taylor, Jackson Brown, the Doobie Brothers, and Steely Dan era. [Applause from audience members of a similar vintage] If I were a songwriter, my stuff would sound very much influenced by that and not by what's on the radio today. And so many of us older folks say, “Oh, I can't stand what's on radio today.” How many people in the room would admit that they’ve had thought or said it out loud? Yeah, raise your hands! [Hands go up] But you know what? You need to let go of precious, because you're holding on to what you're comfortable with doing. You're not getting out of your comfort zone, and that's another thing that holds you back. So, it's easy to judge what’s out there on the charts that you can't or don’t do because you haven't tried and you haven't studied it yet and you don't understand it. So, it's very easy to say, “I hate what's on radio today.” But guess what? People—in the sync industry, and especially in the record industry—don't typically need James Taylor, they need whatever's happening now. Who is the happening singer/songwriter, today? That’s what they want! But—and I know Ron will jump on this—they need what's going to happen two years from now. So, do you guys have any advice about how people who are stuck in that rut or comfortable lane can let go of precious, precious being the music that they grew up with, that they are comfortable with?
Rob: I'm going to hit the ping pong ball to you guys in one sec. Where's Aaron? Aaron, stand up. He’s my right-hand man, right there. Aaron Overton, ladies and gentlemen. [Applause] So, every Friday, Aaron sends me the Top 10 Songs of every chart. And over the weekend, I listen. I couldn't tell you who made each record, because I don't pay attention to the names as much as what's going on; the trends and the sounds. I love music and the changes. And I think young people have fresh ideas. I love it! I don’t want to hear Van Halen, circa 1984. I've been there. I've done it. I loved it then, but things move on and I want to stay as relevant as I can be. I think you guys [in the audience] could probably take that and hit it out of the park, because the music is ever-changing. And you’ve got to—in my opinion—you’ve got to stay on top of it if you want to be in the game.
“You’ve got to go back to the past in order to go to the future, because nothing's new under the sun.”
Ron: And here's the thing. I'm gonna give you a couple little tidbits to think about. First of all, like you said, Michael, most people that are making today’s hit records are older. Take Taylor Swift, right? And she's out there with all the Swifties. Well, she’s got Jack Antonoff, her frequent collaborator. He's 40 years old making those records, right? And so, because there's a skill set that comes over time that you learn as a producer, and you learn how to get the records done. Now, another thing that Rob and I talk about all the time—you have to know what's going on. You have to know what the biggest thing is, and how do you project what the trend, the style, and the sound will be two years from now? That’s a huge thing.
So, there are a couple little things you can do to get there. First thing you do; you go back 20 years. You see what was happening. You go, “Oh, they were doing this in that section. Let me take a little piece of that and see if I can update it.” You can go back 10 years. You can go back 30 years, but you’ve got to go back to the past in order to go to the future, because nothing's new under the sun, right? So, you just have to learn how to infuse it in a forward-thinking way. Look at Olivia Rodrigo. When we first heard her, there was really nothing that we could all pinpoint and say, “Oh, she's doing like Paramore,” right? We knew the sound, but she just changed it a bit and put more of a hip or current melody on it, right? And that's a great example. So, you have to learn this for yourself. How do you go back and grab something and bring it forward, and then shoot it forward into the future? If you really want to be a songwriter or a producer for the future, you've got to anticipate what's going to come two years from now.
And another thing is we all know as writers, and this is a hard thing to learn. I remember when I went to my very first-ever convention, and I was talking about it earlier, and all you want is somebody up there on the stage to say, “I like your song. God, that's it!” And you're ready to float out of the ballroom, shouting, “They liked it!” You go back home and tell your friends. And you're texting your friends, “They like my song,” right? And you gotta learn how to ask for more input and knowledge along the way, right? It's really important to keep asking for that knowledge. And those of you who are in this room, you get that knowledge here at TAXI, and it makes you 1% more “there.” So, you know, I applaud you for that.
Robina: This is all fantastic. I'm learning and I love it. One of the things that I would do, because I was so separated from current music for a while, was to find what are the top 10, and listen to them really critically. Like, “How do those different instruments kind of fit with each other? And I’m listening and thinking, “Oh, wow. Okay, that instrument’s more forward. Okay, wait. Oh, that's interesting.” You hear how the sounds are different, and then play with it. It becomes an exercise of learning and practicing, you know, bringing that song into your track, and then starting to play with trying to make your own sounds. And how does that sound similar? How do you get the same kind of rhythms? And this is not what you're putting out there, but you’re literally just practicing what the current sound is like, and learnin how to get there. And even if you don't particularly love what it sounds like, you’re exercising some muscles there, both in listening and in playing—with the emphasis on play—to really explore those different ideas. And then ultimately, the cool thing is, you start to bring your own you—you’re sound—to the picture. So, as you start to get more facile with testing different kinds of genres or different kinds of eras and moods, you're also going to bring your flavor and your history and what you've always brought. And so that combination of what you already know and what you’ve learned becomes something new. And you know, that might just hit that flavor of the month.
Don’t miss the final chapter of this incredibly valuable interview in next month’s TAXI Transmitter!