Moderated by Michael Laskow
Live at the TAXI Road Rally, November 5, 2022
Craig, as long as we’re talking about this technical stuff, let’s stay with it. IPI versus PRO membership numbers.
Craig: Yeah, that’s kind of just a spin off on what those guys have been talking about before. As far as getting prepared, it’s kind of due diligence in the same aspect that if you are fortunate enough to get your music forwarded, which is good. You’ve already gone through a process, you created the music, made it past the screeners, you put it on a playlist and one of these publishers calls you and says, “Yes, we want this.” Make sure you kinda know what you’re doing. Again, read the publishing contract. They’re not that different, they’re boilerplate; you’re going to need to put certain information on it. They vary a little bit, but for the most part everybody downloads the same template, they change their name, you need to put in your address.
But, when I signed a few people on a project that I was working for, I had a few difficulties. A few of you made my life difficult, because I just happened to notice as I was reading… I’m primarily with BMI as a writer; I have publishing with all of them, but somebody’s IPI number didn’t look right and that just caused me to look. Somebody had put their membership number in place of their IPI number. It’s a common mistake, it’s an easy mistake, but it’s a mistake, and it’s also something that could prevent you from getting paid if you give one of these guys a song and you have your membership number to ASCAP or BMI instead of your IPI number. Now, in the U.S. these are two different numbers. I know with international, sometimes that number is the same, the IPI number is the same as the membership number, with some of the overseas PROs. But in the U.S.—ASCAP and BMI—when you get a forward and you are signed to a publisher, make sure you put your IPI number down; it’s how you get paid. It’s back to what Jeff was talking about, that you are leaving money on the table. So, if that gets synced and locked and that number gets recorded next to your name, that money is going nowhere. It’s gonna stay with the PRO, the publishers will get their share, because you can be damn sure that their IPI number is correct. So, they’re gonna get paid, but you’re not.
Again, it’s an easy mistake to make, so I don’t want to harp on it. You’re not an idiot if you do it, but it is a mistake that will prevent you from getting paid. Just like Jeff said, it’s one of those things that will prevent you from getting paid. It’s a small piece of the puzzle, but it’s an easy thing that you guys can do to make sure that your ducks are in a row, that your “i”s are dotted and your “t”s are crossed. Make sure your IPI number is correct.
Greg: One other thing on that, Craig, is that you have got to make sure that your works are registered correctly with your PRO. I mean, don’t trust the publisher or the library to get it right, because they’re human beings too. They go to the same website you do and type a whole bunch of crap in. They can typo the numbers, they can typo your name, they can typo the title of the work, and then, when the cue sheet comes in with the correct title and it’s registered with the wrong title, you’re not getting paid. So, double check their work and make sure that it’s done correctly.
And I didn’t make that up, because it happened to me. I had a song title incorrectly typed in by the publisher that needed to get corrected. In fact, they messed it up on BMI and my co-writer is on ASCAP, and they had it right there, and you knew right away that it was somebody who had a fat- finger typo, and that obviously can happen. But you have to be in charge of that. Like Craig said, they’re trying not to make mistakes so they get paid, but they’re a little less concerned that you’re gonna get paid. So, you have to be the one who’s concerned.
Craig: Right, if you give them the wrong number, they’re going to put your wrong number on the cue sheet or on the publishing contract, and that’s it. That money just stays out there floating around, not going to you. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not saying that you’re an idiot if you do it, I’ve done it, but try not to, because it’s just one of the things that contributes to you not getting paid.
Michael, I want to go to you with something you added: that I thought that this isn’t relevant in the TAXI world. But you know what? It is. It’s relevant for all musicians, because… I’ve been saying the same thing, and that is one thing you said, “One thing that I feel I run into so much lately is that every artist seemed to focus mostly on the songwriting and the recording process, but not much prep time and how they’re going to go to market and promote their music.”
Hallelujah! You know me, I’m a marketing guy. I love marketing; I love planning marketing; I love executing marketing. I don’t like paying for it, but you have to. Or you have to be really scrappy at guerilla marketing, which takes a lot of time. You could not be more right on the money. People put their heart, their soul, and their life savings into a recording. I always say they order a thousand CDs from Disc Makers—make that 975 of them sitting in a box in the garage, and that’s because they’ve only got 25 relatives. I didn’t even know that you ran into that in your world.
Michael: One brief thing to close the loop on something that I said earlier when we were talking earlier about the CD Baby Pro, Songtrust, and TuneCore. I mentioned that they served a valuable purpose, and that’s with the MLC, because so many independent artists are going through those—well, distributing-wise, CD Baby and TuneCore. But I mean, there’s a guy that works for the MLC named Dae Bogan, and part of his role at the MLC is to use third-party partnerships, and they’ve now set up a whole portal for all of the independent distributors to go in and see all of the unclaimed money—i.e., it could be yours—so that they can trace it all back and go back to their clients and say, “Hey, this money is sitting at the MLC.” So, it’s their effort to try to clean up this pool of money that’s the less-than-$3-per-song kind of thing. So, they’re valuable pieces of the whole infrastructure, so just pay attention to that if you’re ever getting any emails from any of them. And if you haven’t signed up for their publishing administration service—and that’s your best option—just remember that you’re doing it and that you don’t sign other deals somewhere else. But then, give them all the information so that you can go get your money, because I would love nothing more than a year from now at the next Road Rally to be able to report that that whole $15 or 20 million, whatever, that was unclaimed is now claimed.
Now to what Michael [Laskow] was saying. Even though the majority of our business is dealing with either bigger catalogs, or writer/producers who are getting lots of stuff on other people’s records and they’re not releasing music, we still do represent a lot of independent artists and we get sent a lot of records, and it’s just interesting in the course of conversation. You know, I’m always kind of fascinated, because, as Jeff said earlier, it’s incredibly hard to make a living now in the music business. It used to be a heck of a lot easier, to be honest. Now our entire world in publishing is fractional pennies, so we have to worry about getting everything registered so that, hopefully, even though say 100,000 streams on Spotify won’t pay you much at all, it still adds up to a lot.
But what has always sort of struck me is that I ask someone their story, “Well, how is it that you came up with the money to do your record?” And, of course, it’s a range of stories of, “Oh, my parents paid for it,” or “I have another job and I saved money.” If any of you’re from Canada, I’m sure you know about Factor and all the other provincial things that you can apply and get free money, basically. I know someone who every year has made their record every year off $20,000 that the Canadian gives them for free, but you have to document how you use the money.
“We’re now at a point where the digital streaming services are getting 100,000 new songs uploaded to them every day. So, it’s just mind blowing, and how do you get heard above the noise?”
But it is always interesting to me that you spend so much time writing the song; then you plan so intricately how you’re going to record it, whether you’re doing it all yourself or with other musicians—or if you’re not a musician, you hire a band; then you get your record and you’re doing artwork and then you upload it, and you have your distributor. But then once it’s distributed everywhere, you didn’t really put much thought into how you were gonna market it. And the crazy thing to me is that there’s a stat that I think was officially announced a couple weeks ago—or maybe it’s a month ago now—that we’re now at a point where the digital streaming services are getting 100,000 new songs uploaded to them every day. So, it’s just mind blowing, and how do you get heard above the noise?
I think it’s still awesome that you do a record that you’ve spent your money on that will give you a lot of personal satisfaction. But, if you’re wanting to sell that record and make a living and use that money to make future records, I would almost be planning how you’re gonna market the record and how much it’s gonna cost before you record the record. Don’t do it when you’re done.
“Why release a record anymore? Release it as 12 individual singles, because then every single song has the ability to be submitted for an editorial playlist.”
But I spend a lot of time thinking about what is your angle, what’s your story? And I don’t release records, but one thing I only found out three months ago is that if you put out a record… Let’s say you do a whole 12-track record, let’s say you’ve set up your profile on Spotify for Artists— which if you’ve never heard of that then you have stuff on Spotify instead of your profile—but when you submit a record for editorial consideration, if it’s a 12-song record, you can only ever submit one track for editorial consideration. So, it’s almost like, why release a record anymore? Release it as 12 individual singles, because then every single song has the ability to be submitted for an editorial playlist.
So, there are a whole lot of things that I think are part of the new musical landscape as far as how you promote and market, and if you don’t know about them, spend some time learning about it. And you won’t learn it from me because I don’t know crap. But Jeff has the record company, he knows I’m sure a whole lot more than me. But, nonetheless, please just spend time doing that, because if you’re not promoting your record, it’s just a hobby, right? It’s the music business, so do take care of your business.
Jeff: We work with a lot of artists and we release a lot of music commercially, and the truth is, the way that we make most of our money through Spotify is because we get so much music placed in film and TV. Then those songs go up on Tunefind, and there are super fans that want playlists related to that music, so the TV shows become a springboard for the streams. And it’s a secondary market, you know, like a million streams is worth approximately $5,000, so it takes a lot of streams to make any real amount of money.
I think from a marketing perspective… We walked away from a deal with an artist. We were really interested in signing this group; they’re kind of just like modern cumbias, with almost a Hip Hop beat behind them, they could pack literally 400, 500 people [in a club] with like a $15 ticket in Phoenix. They had something special on the recording side and on the live performance side, but the main guy was so adamant about having this like slush fund for music videos. He wanted to do like three music videos at $5,000 a video. I didn’t have a problem with the $15,000 for what we were doing, but not for that application. Because, yes, if you’re Taylor Swift, people watch your video. If it’s indie artists, you know it’s about TikTok, it’s about the consistency of being on TikTok every day finding a way to be authentic to yourself and who you are as an artist and finding that niche. I would way rather spend $15,000 on that rather than on three music videos that nobody is going to watch and nobody cares.
We need to build brands by having multiple touch points [with consumers], right? It’s not just one little thing, it’s affecting a group of people on a consistent basis where they start believing in… and there’s some kind of emotional connection, and they want to connect with your music, and they want to listen to it over and over and over again.
So marketing is crucial, and I 100% agree, and there are too many choices, and you need to think long and hard. You know, follow some other artists on TikTok that are like you and see what they’re doing and what is successful and what’s moving you.
Michael eames: The $5,000 you just quoted for the millions, I think—I can’t quote all the rates off the top of my head—that’s on the master royalty side.
Jeff: That’s on the master side. I mean, our distribution is through The Orchard, which is owned by Sony. If you’re a major, I think the money is actually a little bit better, but indies always get screwed.
“Masters make five to six times more money on every stream than publishing does. So that’s why it’s critical that you upload all the information that you have to every possible place.”
Michael: The only reason I point that out is there is more money in masters in the music business right now than there is in publishing, as far as streaming goes. If you had a huge radio hit, you’re going to make more money as a songwriter and a publisher than you will as a master owner, because they don’t participate in terrestrial radio, which is a different topic for another time.
But masters make five to six times more money on every stream than publishing does. So that’s why it’s critical that you upload all the information that you have to every possible place. If you’re getting airplay on SiriusXM or Pandora, you better know about SoundExchange and have registered all of your masters on SoundExchange. Because I know artists who are not signed to a record label… I know one guy in particular who is in the smooth jazz market, right? He hires a radio promoter, he hires a publicity person for each single, and he’s gotten it down to a system where he knows exactly how much money is going to come back when he hits each chart position on the smooth jazz charts, and it continually self-finances itself for each new single. But the majority of the money that he recoups is investment through SoundExchange, it’s not through ASCAP.
That’s interesting. How can an average musician keep track of all this? It’s mindboggling.
Jeff: Honestly, I think that’s the purpose of working with us. I mean, it’s a lot, and it takes a team. And if you’re lucky enough to be in a position where you can do a tour, and there’s actually something to manage, then you probably need a manager, and you might need a publisher to help collect the nickels and make sure that everything is… I mean, I just don’t know anybody that does everything by themselves, I just don’t. So, you need to find some trusted people, and you can find those trusted people through TAXI. I mean, that’s really the honest-to-God truth.
Don’t miss the final installment of this interview in next month’s TAXI Transmitter!