Sherrill Blackman – Music Row Magazine's Song plugger of the Year for 2004, 2005 and 2006.
Tony Ferguson – VP, A&R, A&M/Geffen/Interscope. Discovered and signed No Doubt. 25 million CDs sold.
Brian Howes – Award-winning songwriter, Grammy-nominated producer, record label executive and publisher who has produced hits for Hinder, Daughtry, David Cook, and more.
Darius Jones – Senior director of A&R, Capitol Records, Los Angeles. He's worked with the likes of Ice Cube, T.I., Chris Brown, Snoop Dog, Fabolous, Ne-Yo and Faith Evans, among many others.
Darius, we get an unusually high number of calls from young Hip-Hop artists who say to us, "All I need to do is just get my music out there. I've got a finished CD, and all I need is for TAXI to just hook me up with a distributor." Are distributors sitting there waiting by their phones just waiting for unknown signed artists to distribute?
Darius: No.
"But I've got a finished CD with four-color art. I pressed it at Disc Makers. It's just like the other CDs, why can't they just distribute it? Because if they put it out there, everybody will buy it." Why doesn't that work?
Darius: I think they kind of answer their own question. They are unknown. Who wants to buy something they don't know about? Like Tony said earlier, it's becoming even tougher. If it's tough in Pop and Rock, it's even tougher in Urban music, because it's such a small community. And it really is, like you said, about branding, getting with Kirkland Water, Verizon... I really feel that record labels as we know them have become extinct, and it's going to become like Verizon Records, Sony Records, BlackBerry Records, and stuff like that, that have a built in consumer base that they can actually sell the music directly to.
The future of the industry, whether it's MySpace or Google or Microsoft, whoever are going to be the purveyors of the music, I don't believe that they're go out and want to hire A&R departments. And that's really the future for you guys sitting behind me in the audience, and that's really where TAXI is heading as being your advocates for those of you who over-the-bar and good enough that the major label guys would be interested. Someday Tony is gonna be working for Google and not Interscope.
Tony: That's true. I mean, that will probably happen next year, because with the economy going downside, and like I said before, when the company is losing money, they've got no choice but to let people go. That's what happens in business. These conglomerates have to let people go, not because they're untalented or that the people aren't doing their work. They just can't afford to keep them on. So you're going to find cottage industry marketing and A&R groups out there that will get together. They're already started; they're already out there. Most A&R guys that can't keep their jobs in the major label industry end up being consultants for these things. And I'll probably end up being a consultant at some point. That's the way it goes.
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The reason TAXI started was filtering, right? There should be filtering, because going back to what I said earlier, when you had like a handful of people dominating what people listened to in the music industry, it was somewhat successful, even though people said, "What a lousy choice," You know, we've had this conversation before. Everybody says the radio sucks because everything played on the radio is yuck! But the point being is that as a writer you've really got to keep writing.
How long does it really take, and what's the process to break through as a hit writer that can earn a living in Nashville?
Sherrill: I would say the general rule of thumb is anywhere from five to seven years to really see some kind of progress. I know one writer who had his first hit in like a year and a half. That's the rare exception. And he's gone on to write a bunch of other hits too. But on the average it takes... You got to understand that it's like going to college. You really don't get the lay of the land in the first year; you're just trying to figure out how to get to places and figure out traffic and where to live. Second year you're still meeting people, so by the third year the people that you met in year two they've left that job and moved somewhere else, so you've got to re-learn. It's an ongoing process. So you're there five years before you know it, and, like I said, nobody is going to take you seriously the first year anyway. It's so transient. There are thousands of people that come and go every year, so within the first year it's like people dropping out of college. They come, they stay a couple months and they go home. So, until you're there at least a year, nobody's gonna take you seriously.
Is it offensive to come to town, go over to one of the local watering holes where the industry guys actually hang out, and walk up to people and lay your CD on their table during lunch? Is that frowned upon?
Sherrill: Absolutely. That's one of the big no-no's. I tell people that they've got to learn when to turn it on and when to turn it off. And if you're in their private time and space, like a lunch or an evening meal or they're with their family, definitely that is not the time to do it. But the good thing is to make yourself available for the opportunity. There are certain bars and clubs that some of us hang out at, and if you're just there hangin' out, through osmosis you're gonna meet producers and artists and A&R people and record company people just by being there. That's just the way it is. Isn't it like that here in LA?
It's actually not. People move here thinking the town is just rife with A&R people and rock stars and managers...
Sherrill: Well, I think the big difference is, based on what I've been told, is that Nashville and Music Row is within a three-street, four-block area, so 95% of the Country music that you hear is created within that little tiny area. And there's another little area a couple miles off called Berry Hill that there's the other 5%. I guess here everything is so spread out that you probably don't have that concentration like we do there.
Tony, I'm sorry to ask you this question for the hundredth time, but you always answer it so well. If A&R people and labels are so incredibly picky about what they'll listen to and what they'll sign, why is there so much crap on the radio? [laughter and applause] They're clapping now. He's gonna give you a great answer.
Sherrill: I want to hear this one myself.
Tony: I can't even remember what I said before, to be honest. But the reason why, well, it's questionable whether it's all crap, I mean, that's the first question. I mean, some of it is. Some of it gets promoted based on politics, not necessarily on the value of the content.
Really? Does that still happen? Explain how the political wheels turn? Who is the person behind that political push or nudge?
Tony: You have to really know everything that's going on within your label. You've got to know as much as the head of marketing does; you've got to know as much as the head of promotion does; you've got to try and learn as much as you can about digital marketing and digital downloads. I mean there's a plethora of stuff, because the agenda at a label at any given time there are at least six or seven records in any given month are being worked at a major label, so not everything can be a priority. Again, the one that's doing the most movement in any given month gets the full weight of the money of that company. So you're navigating all these politics. People are trying to say no. Obviously, if you're the head of promotion and you've got seven records, then this Tony Ferguson in A&R just got this new release that he wants to test out at radio, it'll be like, "Well, I'll get to it later, Tony. Don't worry about it." But in the meantime, you know that as time is ticking away you're spending money on this artist in making the record, so you want to get something in the marketplace as soon as possible. Maybe you've got a tour coming up that you've been working on with the manager and an agent, so it's crucial that you have that record in the marketplace for that tour. In the meantime, the label is kind of pushing you away. So you have to go around people's offices... It's like working in Washington. You knock on the door and say, "Hey, George, how are ya doing?" And you try and get something going through your relationships within the label. So, politically, it's a minefield. Then from there each individual department goes outsourcing to radio stations, to marketing companies, to Vogue magazine. You know, Vogue magazine is looking to do a feature on a major girl about dresses or something. So you want Gwen Stefani, because the record's going to come out soon and a big thing in Vogue magazine would be great. But you're competing with Fergie, you're competing with Christina Aguilera. There's a lot of stuff out there, so, politically it's very, very hard. It's not just having a hit record in your hands; it's the politics that go with it.
I know that payola doesn't exist in the old-fashioned paradigm, but certainly radio programmers are given favors. "Can you be a consultant and help us pick the hits?" Does that kind of stuff still goes on. How much influence does that play in today's market?
Tony: Well, it's been very difficult ever since Elliot Spitzer out of New York went after all those radio stations and programmers, and then went after the labels. The labels have been very careful to distance themselves from that arrangement. Not that it doesn't go on. but it's very underground and very low level. Basically, we strong arm. "We got Eminem coming out. If you don't play this record, you're not getting Eminem." We're not going to give them an exclusive. "You're not going to get the exclusive unless you play the game." If they're going to play the new 50 Cent stuff, we want a guarantee that we're gonna get more bang for our buck.
Right. Somebody won't show up at the KROQ Weenie Roast unless you hit them hard for...
Tony: Right. You do trades, it's Indian trading.
Brian, what common traits do you see in the artists who succeed that the people in this room could look inward and say, "Gee, do I have that trait?" or "How can I develop that trait?"
Brian: Like I've always said, it always starts with a song, then that opens all the other doors, and then you have to walk through them and make sure it happens. I think to be very self-aware and analyze your songs and your abilities and your image and the way you sing from an outside perspective. Always try and look at things very discriminately to make sure... Compare yourself.
When I was coming up, I would compare myself, not to the local band but to huge bands, or like Diane Warren was always a writer that I looked up to. I really like Pop music, and it was like, "You know what? I want to do what she does." And I studied her, and I studied her songs. I kind of modeled myself after her. "Oh, she does this chorus," or this melody or this chord. I really studied. Find somebody that you look up to that's doing well and study what they do. Find out what they do in songs and how they got their start. I just kind of did that, and it worked for me. You always want to put your own personal spin on it, though.
I think that, especially when I go into situations when I do co-writes with bands that don't want to co-write, like with the David Cook song I wrote with Chris Cornell... The only reason I got that co-write was because Jimmy Iovine told him he had to write with me, because he was like, "I am not co-writing with anybody." I knew if I got with him and I hung out with him and we bro'd down a bit, it would work. So he came over and we wrote "Light On" for his record. Then he decided to go in a different direction and the song got picked up by David Cook, which I thought was really strange because it was kind of dark for an Idol. But, oh well, I'm happy about it.
What an awesome place to be in where Jimmy Iovine mandates that somebody has to write with you. How do the artists take it when they're kind of forced into that position with you? Is it uncomfortable walking into the room? They've been arm-twisted, forced into writing with you, or are they like, "I want to write with this guy because he has such a great track record," and they know you personally?
Brian: At first it is. I remember Wes from Puddle of Mudd, who I was working on the Puddle of Mudd stuff, he basically just looked at me and goes, "Where's your beer?" Literally, he just walked in my door, goes over to my fridge, and starts drinking all my beer. It was like, "OK, cool. Give me a couple of those." So we had a couple of cocktails together, I told him some road stories, and he was like, "Oh, I remember your band." We just had to bond. You've just got to get that door open with these guys and then they can see that it's not a threat. I'm not going to try and rewrite their whole image and everything and make them compromise themselves. I think that's the key to co-writing with people like that; there are certain boundaries that you have to write within. Like you can't come up with Britney Spears lyrics for Chris Cornell or something like that. You know what I mean? But it's that initial thing. Get the door open, and then kind of sell yourself. And sometimes it's great to have a guy like Jimmy or somebody like that, because sometimes they just won't do it. They'll say, "No, I'm not going to do it." But he has the juice to make it happen, so it's kinda awesome.
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| Darius Jones |
Darius, so many people think that a great bio, a great package … Oh, I get this one all the time, "But my CD's been mastered," as if an A&R guy is gonna go, "Wow, you've got a CD that's been mastered, with four-color art." How important is the song? Is it still the most important thing?
Darius: Yes it is. Personally, I could care less if your package looks pretty, if it's wrapped in nice fine paper and the pictures look beautiful. I could care less about that, because all that could be perfect, and the song could be crap. I'd rather have a CD with just your name written on it with a Sharpie and the songs are amazing.
How many songs will you listen to before you finally hit on the 12 that are going to make it on a record?
Darius: Wow, countless. Hundreds—200 to 300 songs. I am constantly bombarded with songs when I put it out there that I'm looking. They just flood your MP3 e-mail address, and hopefully you'll find two or three good ones out of 200.
Sherrill, what trends can we look forward to in Nashville as far as types of songs, types of artists? I know there is the ongoing fight of traditional and contemporary, or Pop/Country, and that older more traditional people like traditional stuff, and the kids seem to drift away from it. Is that battle still ongoing, who's winning, and what are we going to see in the future?
Sherrill: Historically, the pendulum has always swung, and I thought we were going to head back towards traditional after we had been inundated with the Pseudo-Country/Pop stuff we'd had for the past several years. But it's not swinging back towards traditional, not to the extent that I thought it would. So I think we're going to still be in more the Country/Pop mode for at least another two or three years. I also see more of the singer/songwriters emerging—artists like Taylor Swift. In fact, that's one of the biggest obstacles I'm facing now, is more and more artists are trying to write, even though most of them are not real writers. So I'm getting as many calls now from artists and managers and record companies wanting to set their artists up with my writers to write for a project instead of just pitching songs straight out to those projects. So I'm almost kind of, in fact, becoming a writer manager, as well as pitching songs, and that frustrates me. No offense to anyone, but I wish they would let the singers sing, and the writers write. [applause]
Brian: It's the old, "Add a word, get a third," thing.
And with that sad but profound observation, I think we'll wrap this puppy up. Gentlemen, thank you all for a great panel! [applause]
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